Sheree - Surviving Cancer

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This Episode:
She hears the words “You have breast cancer” while standing on a packed BART train in San Francisco, and the world tilts. Sheree takes us from that surreal phone call to the small but life-changing moment where she refuses to wait six months and asks for a biopsy now. The result is a story about early detection, clarity, and the kind of self-advocacy that can feel uncomfortable until you remember what’s at stake: your body, your time, your family. 

We also get practical about breast cancer treatment decisions, including the real differences between a lumpectomy and a mastectomy, why radiation often follows breast-conserving surgery, and what it means to live in “after” with medication, reconstruction choices, and recurrence anxiety. Along the way, we talk about breast cancer symptoms people miss, how awareness campaigns can still leave us under-educated, and why “it probably isn’t cancer” is not the same as certainty. 

Then the conversation widens into the inner work that helps you survive the outer work. Sheree shares how her marriage deepens even though she believes in God and her husband is agnostic, and she tells the unforgettable story of requesting Bob Dylan in a medical procedure room so she can pray and breathe through fear. She also explains her daily practice of two-way prayer, a notebook-based meditation tool she uses on trains, in tense meetings, and in moments when she knows reacting will only create more pain. 

If you’ve ever felt dismissed by the system, overwhelmed by fear, or unsure how to ask for what you need, this is for you. Subscribe, share this with someone who needs it, and leave a review with the tool you use to stay steady when life hits hard.

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Transcript

Faith Differences And A Cold Open

SPEAKER_05 0:00

And my husband and I do not share the same faith. Um, I believe in God. He is an agnostic, probably leaning more towards atheism.

SPEAKER_00 0:13

Welcome

Welcome And Setting The Tone

SPEAKER_00 0:14

to the So Not Skin Podcast, a space where real stories for real people help us discover how we become who we are. I'm your host, Jen Splumac, whereas my students like to call me Ms. Jen, whichever you prefer. I'm so glad that you're here. This podcast is a safe place where we will get beneath the surface and explore real experiences of everyday growth and the honest hard work it takes to get through the other side. The best stories come from the breaking and the rebuilding. So whether we address things here through a deep conversation or a quick speechable moment, settle in and let's dive into today's episode. Cherie, I'm so glad that you're here.

SPEAKER_05 1:02

Hi, Jen. Thank you so much for having me on the show. I'm so excited to be here, and I feel very honored that you've asked me to share my um my experience with people.

SPEAKER_00 1:11

That's an honor. Absolutely. I think our stories are our biggest gift to give to the world. Yeah. I agree. Uh you've dealt with cancer and you've survived cancer. And I wonder if that's something you'd be willing to talk to us about, what that experience has been like for you, what it was like to sort of get the diagnosis and um and who you've had to become to move through it with the grace that I've seen you move through it with.

SPEAKER_05 1:39

Yeah, I really look forward to sharing um this specific part of my life because so many women and men have experienced breast cancer. Um, it is not discriminating. The disease kills lots of people, and it's one of the number one killers for women in particular. Um,

The Call That Confirmed Cancer

SPEAKER_05 1:57

so I just want to say that last year, or actually 2024, the day before Christmas Eve, I received a call from Kaiser. And they said, Hey, you know, you had a mammogram recently, and um we flagged it. We'd like you to come in and do another mammogram that's a little bit more um detailed. Can you come? And I said, absolutely. And I honestly wasn't in much fear because, like many people, I have brand death, dense breasts. And so I showed up and they um they did another mammogram, and the radiologist came out and he said, Hey, you know, it doesn't look like cancer, but just in case we're gonna go next door and we're gonna do an ultrasound. And I said, Okay, and to be honest, I again I wasn't too worried about it. And we went in there and um the ultrasound tech spent a lot of time measuring and it was pretty extensive, and I knew that something was up, and she began to ask me questions about you know, do you have any kids and how old are your kids and asking me just general questions about motherhood? And I figured she was just trying to divert my attention, but I'm an investigator by trade, so I was a little intuitive about something might be going on here. Um, but I was staying in the moment, and so the doctor came in after he had consulted with the ultrasound tech and he said, you know, it doesn't look like cancer. Uh, you know, there's two little masses in there. Um, here's a piece of paper. I've checked the box for you to come back in six months and we'll check it again to see if it's grown. And I said, Okay, that sounds like a like a plan. And I left, and as soon as I left, I called my husband on my drive home. And I just didn't feel right about it. And I was no more than five minutes into the conversation with my husband on the phone while I was driving, and uh I get a call from the doctor, the same doctor, and he's like, Hey, I know you just left the facility and I'm asked, I want to know how you feel about our plan to wait six months. And I said, I'm so glad you called me because I was gonna call you back. I'm actually not okay with that. Would it be possible to just go ahead and do a biopsy now rather than wait, just to be safe? Because you don't know me, but I have an amazing life, and I have these two beautiful children who are, you know, only 12 years old, and I'd really like to stick around as long as possible. So let's just be cautious. And he said, No problem. So I was back there two weeks later getting a biopsy, and that doctor who performed the um biopsy said, you know, it doesn't look or move like cancer. I'm pretty sure that um it's not cancer, but don't quote me on it. Uh, wait for the pathology report.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_05 4:37

I was like, cool, that's awesome. Glad to hear it. So I wasn't worried about it. I had sort of let go and in fact had even forgotten that this pathology was being processed. And so one day I get the call and I'm on BART and I'm on the train, it's pretty loud, and I'm at Civic Center, about to go through the tube. And the Kaiser lady said, Hey, you know, I got your pathology reports back. It sounds loud. Would you like to call me back? And I said, No, no, no problem at all. And the phone call started to cut in and out.

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Oh no.

SPEAKER_05 5:08

Jeez, perfect timing. Yeah, all I heard was, um, you need to blank blank blank blank blank cancer, blank, blank. I'm so sorry.

SPEAKER_00 5:20

Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_05 5:21

Uh and I'm on a packed train, right? Rush hours, San Francisco, heading back to the East Bay. And when I finally had like taken a deep breath, and I said, Um, I'm so sorry, can you hear me? She said, Yes, I can hear you clearly. I said, Uh, did you just tell me I have I have breast cancer? And she's like, Yes, I'm so sorry. And when I repeated, did you just, you know, when I said, Did you just tell me I have breast cancer? All these people on the train like could hear me, right? So they turn and they're looking at me, and people looked really shocked and concerned. And I said, Um, okay, what do I do now? And she's like, Somebody will call you in the next 24 hours. Um, you'll be set for surgery. And it just started happening so fast, right? And wow. Like we have surgery before I even meet with an oncologist. So it's really interesting. So I hung up the phone, and I I felt like I was having this outer body experience that like part of me was just moving outside of my body from the shock and fear and disbelief. And so I took a deep breath and I went into what's called a two-way prayer.

SPEAKER_00 6:31

Let me let me ask you a question real quick, if I could, before we get to that. Um, first of all, thank you so much for sharing your story. Uh, as you said, so many people are dealing with breast cancer, and frankly, cancer in general. I've got a handful of stories uh myself. I'm I'm in one right now with a loved one. Um something that stuck out to me is first of all, I just thought for myself, what an experience to be on a public transit situation and witness somebody apparently learn that they have breast cancer in real time. And just seeing that because sadly, with all of the cancer that is throughout our society, probably nine out of ten of the people who witness that are going through it with somebody, if not themselves. So that felt very profound to me as you said that. Um, but secondly, you you said that they got you right into surgery. What so this was far along.

SPEAKER_05 7:39

So when I got the call and she said you have breast cancer, someone will call you within 24 hours to schedule your surgery. It was like we are cut, this is what we do.

SPEAKER_00 7:50

They, yeah, it was I that it wasn't we found something, it's small, we're gonna give it a little bit of time, like they originally said, to see if it grows. They said, Oh my god, cancer surgery is nest. Did that make you panic? Like, was it stage four?

SPEAKER_05 8:05

No,

Choosing Mastectomy Over Lumpectomy

SPEAKER_05 8:06

it and in fact, it's very early stage one, grade A, after a mastectomy and everything was said and done, but I have two small ones, and so it I'm on a breast cancer group on Facebook actually, and it is really common where people go straight to surgery. You either have a lumpectomy, which is surgery, right? Um, and since mine was early, I have the option of doing a lumpectomy or a mastectomy. And after careful prayer meditation around it, and doing my own research and consulting several doctors and also calling people who are breast cancer survivors, I made the deliberate decision to have the mastectomy to avoid the radiation.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Okay, so the lumpectomy is to just remove whatever it is that they found and then get radiation preventatively. Yes. And then the mastectomy is removing the breasts. Yes. And whatever they found. Is that right?

SPEAKER_05 8:56

Yeah, they removed the whole breast. And then I had to have reconstruction. And I'm still technically in cancer treatment now. I'll be on medication, cancer meds for five years.

SPEAKER_00 9:06

Okay. Thank you. I didn't know the distinction between those two, and I didn't know that one necessitated radiation and the other didn't.

SPEAKER_05 9:12

So you know, it's so interesting with breast cancer in this country. You know, some people call it like pink washing the disease because you hear about it in October, right? October's breast cancer. And so it's always like you hear about, you know, the fundraisers and the walks. Sure. But you know, I truly lacked education about what to even look for in my breast. You know, as a young person, I remember being told you should check your breasts. But there's also other physical symptoms that in fact I had a I was displaying dimpling on my breast and just thought I was getting older and that that's what happens to breasts. But come to find out it's actually a symptom of breast cancer or it can be.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Well, yeah, see, that's what, and that's part of what I want uh these conversations to do is provide better information for people because you're right, things like this, and you know, there's so many things we've put a month for, right? We've got women's month in March. Hey, let's celebrate, you know, all of the history of amazing people that are female in one month, and we'll just do parades and you know, Black History Month and all of the stuff. We try to, it's just it's silly how we simplify these things. So so okay, so I didn't know that that was a symptom either. And I certainly didn't know um that there's other ways to sort of, you know, what to look for because yeah, we're told check your breasts in the shower. Okay, great. And then you see something and you talk to the doctor, and they're like, oh, that's just a fibrous cyst, that's nothing to worry about. And um, you know, Cherie, you're telling me it sounds like you you talked to several doctors who were basically just telling you it's nothing to worry about until you really just kept at it. So the advocating for yourself is critical. And people don't always have the capacity to do that. Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 11:01

And you know, I mean, prior to that I had some other, you know, issues with migraines and learning how to advocate and find your voice. And I think there's a way to be a fierce advocate without, you know, being manic about it or, you know, uh confrontational, that it's okay to say, you know what, like I don't want to wait the six months. I would like the testing. Or, you know, even when I was trying to make my decision about whether or not I was gonna have my breast taken. I mean, these are big, this it's a body part. And, you know, my doctor recommended a lump back to me and said, oh, you know, radiation, it's not a problem, it's not gonna give you more cancer. And saying, you know, at the end of the day, like, I would rather you just take the breast. I would have more comfort and having the breast removed and then, you know, making the decision to have implants put in my body. So yeah, a lot that goes into it. And I know that people do feel sometimes um coerced or not heard. And we do have to speak our truth and say, hey, look. And in fact, there was a doctor of my reconstruction doctor when I went to see her. I had already made up my mind at that point, I wasn't going to do reconstruction, reconstructive surgery. And she asked me a lot of questions about my self-esteem and how do I see myself. And she said, look, your oncologist talks to you through and sees you through the lens of wanting to eradicate cancer. I'm a cosmetic surgeon. I see it through a completely different lens. I see it through the lens of, well, you how will you feel about yourself? What do you envision? And then I discussed the options of possibilities of what your body can be like post-cancer. And I'm so grateful that she paused and said, hey, we're gonna look at this differently. And then I ended up coming to a different conclusion. I decided to get implants and I don't regret it at all.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

And your husband has been, I imagine, tremendously supportive as he is throughout this whole situation, including uh your choice initially to do mastectomy and not get surgery. So how has that been in your relationship?

Marriage Support In Maximum Vulnerability

SPEAKER_05 13:03

Oh, I mean, I I have to tell you that it's been it's deepened our connection with each other. And it's hard not to cry about it because um I should probably like tell you and whoever's listening that, you know, for a good chunk of my life, I was never intimate in relationships. That intimacy was terrifying for me. You know, I grew up in a house where there the modeling of a healthy relationship did not exist, um, that I didn't know how to be vulnerable and to trust others. And so it's been a really long journey of, you know, even meeting my husband when I was 35 and making the choice to say I do, right? One day at a time. And you know, that was terrifying in and of itself to even get to that place. And so what cancer did for me and my marriage is um is do we have time for me to share a story about please? That's what this is all about.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_05 13:59

He the whole time when this was happening, listened, listened. He didn't have a lot of words, and the words he did have were based on, and my husband and I do not share the same face from us as a I believe in God, and that was an agnostic. And every time I cried or I was on the verge of having so many times where I had to leave, he didn't try to fix it. My God and have that very forefront of what was happening, and my husband did not um belittle it or try to make himself the you know, the the power to help heal me. He really was just very respectful. But I had to do a procedure the day before they took my breast. And so we had to go to Walnut Creek Kaiser, and it was, I think, on like a Tuesday night. And what they do is they take this long needle and they inject through your nipple radioactive material, and what they're inserting is material that when you get your mastectomy the next day, it can highlight the lymph nodes. They want to see where this cancer has gone in your body, right? Stage the cancer. And so uh we went to the basement and the gentleman explained the process. And he said, you know, it's gonna hurt when I insert this needle into your nipple, obviously, but it's gonna really hurt about three seconds later when I inject this material. It will feel like your breast is being lit up by a flamethrower.

SPEAKER_00 15:19

Oh, wow.

SPEAKER_05 15:20

Prepare for that, but it it won't be too long of you know, that uh material going in your breast. And I said, Okay, no problem. And he left, and of course, you know, like I'm on the eve of having my breast taken. I'm on the eve of finding out like how bad is this cancer? Because at the time, all I knew was I had these two small tumors and I didn't know if it had traveled elsewhere. So I got undressed and I'm on the table and I am Jen. I'm literally shaking like a leaf, and I'm I'm terrified. And I looked at my husband and I said, I'm so afraid of what's happening, what's to come? I said, Um, I think I'm gonna have an anxiety attack. I need to breathe for a moment. And he held my hand and I said, Do you think you can see if you can get Spotify on your phone? Right, Kaiser has good Wi-Fi, by the way. He's the basement, he logged in to Spotify and I said, Can you pull up a song by Bob Dylan called Boots of Spanish Leather? And uh he pulled it up because music calms me. It's the way I connect to God. And so the gentleman came back in and we're playing this music. And I said, Sir, I'm I'm really struggling right now. Is it okay if we listen to music while you do this procedure? Would you be able to do your job despite the music playing? And I said, It would really calm me. And he's like, Oh, yeah, absolutely, no problem. And so I laid on the table, and he the the technician was on the right with the needle, and my husband was on my left side, and he was holding my hand, and my husband was staring deep into my eyes as I started to say the serenity prayer out loud, and I was listening to Bob Dylan, and I was staring at my husband, and I had never felt so vulnerable in my adult life than I did in that very moment.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

And I had this man who I just know and I love and I trust, and I felt completely just consumed by love, and I felt safe, and I just knew that I was gonna get through it with him by my side.

SPEAKER_05 17:22

It's incredible, it was incredible, and after that, um, you know, procedure was like I feel completely connected to my spouse in a way that I had not experienced prior to getting sick.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Listen, I have to tell you, first of all, what a beautiful story. Thank you for sharing that with us, and what a scary story to be laying that vulnerably on a table and not knowing what's coming next. And I have to tell you that you're an anomaly. You and your husband are something special because I guarantee you, uh, I don't actually have data, but I'm assuming, and so maybe I shouldn't guarantee, but I would suspect that a very large portion of partnerships are not capable of doing what you just described, or would not think themselves capable, maybe. Um your advocacy for yourself, your requesting of music, your knowing yourself well enough to know that music would help.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:19

Uh his love for you with uh not having words, but knowing presence mattered and knowing holding your hand mattered. Uh and I even had a moment when you were telling your story where I was thinking, boy, I think some people would be like, you can't listen to music in here, we're in a doctor's office. You know what I mean? And and not meaning anything uh bad, but uh, you know, it's kind of how we behave when we maybe don't know ourselves or when we're embarrassed, or we don't want people to think something of us. And so, in an effort to protect the two of you and what the doctor might think of you, somebody could say something like that. But it doesn't sound like any of that happened. So I just celebrate you and your husband for being what appears to me anyway, and I'm sure that there's a shit show from time to time. But I I just want to celebrate both of you for uh just maybe your emotional intelligence or your just maturity in um in that moment in particular. I just think that's beautiful. And God forbid I ever find myself as a spouse or as a patient in that situation, I pray that I might uh behave as well.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

Thank you. I appreciate that. And you know what the other thing I learned from this experience is that we rise to the occasion. Yeah, sometimes I think we surprise ourselves, right? How many times do we like doubt our ability to get through things and then we go through them? And you know, one of my favorite quotes from somebody um who no longer is alive, he used to say, God lives on the razor's edge of whatever it is I'm trying to move. And I love that because right, the the razor implies there's cuts and bleeding and it's painful and it's hard. But I've been around, you know, on the earth long enough to know to develop some wisdom that oh my God, this is a really, really tough time, but we are going to get through it. It is not I am going to get through it, that I have to be vulnerable and depend sometimes on other people and ask for what I want and I need. You know, my parents had a radically different experience going through the cancer diagnosis.

Parents’ Fear And Recurrence Anxiety

SPEAKER_05 20:24

They were really upset and very emotional and um angry and in a lot of fear because I'm their baby, right? I mean, there's probably nothing worse than losing your own child, I would argue. And they, my dad, anytime I started to cry, he would try to change my behavior. Well, why are you crying? You need to do this, you need to went into fix it mode, right? And I was like, Dad, it's okay. It's okay. In fact, I most recently was um was at my parents' house about a month ago. So I'm how many months post-cancer? March, I had the mastectomy, so I'm like eight or nine months, and I've been thinking a lot about reoccurrence. Is it gonna come back and get me? That's a whole thing that all people who have had cancer experience, right? Uh, it's a lot of anxiety around that. And so I was visiting my folks in my childhood house, and my dad was in his office, and I said, Hey, you know, I'm thinking about buying more life insurance. And my dad's like, Well, what do you need that for? I said, Well, you know, reoccurrence rates are pretty high, and so there's a possibility, and I just want to make sure that my family is provided for. And my dad, like, nearly lost his shit.

SPEAKER_03 21:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 21:34

Out of his chair, and he's like, Well, you know, that's ridiculous. You shouldn't be thinking about that. And you're you're not going anywhere. And I could see him just getting angry and tense and in fear. And I said, Dad, it's okay. And he's like, No, it's not okay. And there was this part of me, Jen, that, you know, hearing his criticism and his anger towards me, even bringing this up with him, that the old me wanted to like get my keys and just say goodbye. I'll See you later and go home to protect myself. Sure. Once again, I closed my eyes and I went inside and I started to do a two-way prayer. And out of it, my higher power revealed to me in that moment your dad is not criticizing you because of who you are and the choices you're making. Your dad's terrified he's going to lose his little girl.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_05 22:20

And so I opened my eyes back up and I looked at my dad, and I just grabbed him by his shoulders and pulled him to my chest and held him in a bear hug and started to cry. And I whispered in his ear, I said, Dad, it's okay.

SPEAKER_03 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:38

Okay to be afraid. You're my dad. And I know you love me more than anyone in the world. And I can't imagine the fear you must feel with your daughter and the idea of that she may not make it. And I said, I'm not afraid to die. I just want to make sure that my family's going to be provided for in my absence. And that I'm scared too. And it's okay to be scared together. I love you. I love you so much.

SPEAKER_00 23:03

What was his response to that?

SPEAKER_04 23:05

And my dad went from like this frozen stick of butter, right?

SPEAKER_05 23:09

Just solid and unmovable to he softened. He became this like soft butter that just I could feel his body just change.

SPEAKER_04 23:20

And he held me and he said he loved me.

SPEAKER_00 23:28

I'm just I'm so grateful at your willingness to share all of this with us. I think um, I mean, I don't need to say what a what a tender moment, but what really struck me uh is the sort of micro example that you just um painted for us of the human race. You know, how um when we get angry, when we get divisive, when we get it's a lack of understanding or a lack or a or a surplus of fear. Yes. And um, you know, oftentimes the the tears or the softening or the vulnerability, uh, it's not celebrated in our society, you know, it's considered weak. Uh, it's considered uh to be a lack of cognitive function, right? The inability to critically think or be intelligent to have tears and to do soft and feel your feelings. And I think it's so uh much a part of what uh the divisiveness that we experience as people in our families and uh amongst each other. And I think um that what you did is just really courageous. And um, I know that your dad needed that hug as much as you did, you know.

SPEAKER_05 24:46

Yeah, absolutely. Go ahead. No, I just was thinking about you know the generational gap too, right? That he's from a generation that you don't feel feelings unless they're called ones, right? And to push that stuff away, and that like you know, he when growing up used to hear the word weak a lot, right? That's weak. And you know, I think about my two 12-year-old little boys who are being modeled behavior that you know, my husband, we all cry, and that it's okay, and that there is this like expulsion of anxiety and fear with those tears, um, and that it should be embraced. But you know, like my dad's probably never gonna be comfortable with crying in that vulnerability. But the important part for me was to recognize and to have the wisdom that he's just in a lot of fear, yeah, doesn't have the ability to articulate that or even feel it. And he is who he is, and that's okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:41

That's right. That's right. All right, Cherice. So thank you for uh allowing me to take us in that uh sort of what my wife would call side quest. Uh let's talk about um, you know, we all need to find the things or the people uh that will get us through these types of situations. Now you mentioned that uh you do have faith in God and your husband doesn't necessarily, but that you're able to sort of respect each other's situations and belief systems. You also mentioned something called two-way prayer. Can you tell us a little uh what that is, how you use it, and how it helped you?

Two-Way Prayer And God Consciousness

SPEAKER_05 26:18

Sure. I a couple of years ago I have a colleague who has her own spiritual journey and she had come across this two-way prayer tool. And she asked me, she's like, Hey, you ever heard of two-way prayer? And I said, No, what is that? And she said, Well, it's a tool that some folks across the world are using. And um, she sent me a website. Um, there's a guy named Father Bill uh W, who lives in Texas, I believe, in Austin, and he has kind of dug up this tool, so to speak, uh, because it existed a long time ago. People were using it and practicing it, and it's kind of a forgotten tool. And so he came across in some archives and decided to write a book about it. There's a two-way prayer book out there on Amazon, and he has a whole website dedicated and a video with the uh history of it and how to do it. And so I studied that video a few times, and essentially what we do, you get a blank notebook, like I have here in front of me. I have a couple of them that are now filled up. Uh, but the process is I sit down in a place that I usually don't sit. Um, you know, you wouldn't sit in the TV chair or you wouldn't sit at your desk. Those are familiar places where you do other things, but to find a comfortable new environment to sit. And um I begin by quieting my mind to the best that I can and going inward, and I think about what do I want to tell my higher power today? And so I open up that notebook and I begin by writing to my higher power, kind of a note, if you will. And then um I get my phone and I usually set it for 15 or 20 minutes, and I go back into meditation, and then I'm waiting to hear from my higher power, my God. And um, that process has been the most transformative journey that I think I have had in a very, very long time. It now has become a daily practice. Um, so much so, as you heard you know, me talk earlier, the stories of you know my father and um you know discovering I had breast cancer and doing the two-way prayer, that now it's just not about sitting in the morning and doing this connection with God, but it has now become this God consciousness that I carry throughout the day. So if I have conflict with others, or if I feel stuck or trapped or overwhelmed, I stop wherever I'm at, whether I'm on BART, right? Or if I have to pull over that I go into this meditative session and wait for my higher power to talk to me. You know, what is the knowledge? What is what does my higher power want me to do today? Or what obstacle I have? Um, what words would my higher power speak to me? And I gotta be honest, when I first started doing this, I was like, well, how the heck do I know that these are come this is coming from my higher power or my God? Um, and it's not coming from me or my ego or yeah, I was gonna ask about that.

SPEAKER_00 29:22

How do you know what you're hearing isn't just uh, you know, I got all these personality. Hey, go shopping, that'll make you feel better. Well, God told me, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 29:31

Exactly. And that's a reasonable question, right? And so the way Father Bill described it, and I think it's just the best way to respond to that question, is he said, Well, you're never gonna know for sure. But what I would what I would like to believe is that whatever source this is coming from in my mind or my heart, that it is coming from the best places of who I am. And that makes sense. And it's just been my experience in doing this, that as I write what my higher what I perceive as my higher power talking to me, that it is filled with gentleness and acceptance and love and forgiveness and all-knowingness, right? And so I I don't know, but I do know that it has directed me in ways and helped me get through things that I otherwise probably would have struggled more deeply at. And I have I have my two-way prayer books, and if you don't mind, would you be open to me sharing, sharing maybe one or two? No, I'd be more than happy to listen to that. All right. I have one that was written on January 24th, 2025. And I said, this was me writing to my higher powers, that's how we begin it. After being quiet for a few minutes, what the words came to me. I wrote, I feel the nervous energy building inside of me today. Please help me move towards acceptance. Yesterday, when my hands turned bright red, I went into so much fear. Every email I get regarding blood work is like a strike from lightning. Why can't I let go? I love you, God. I trust you. I want to be free of this self-centered or self-created prison. And my higher power responded to me. It said, My love, there is no greater punisher than fear. It eats away at your spiritual foundation. It is the gray that displeases you. You prefer the comfort of white or black, the knowing. You seek me most when times are gray. Try to love all of the colors as if it were a rainbow, or as if you were blind. See nothing but me holding and loving you as if you were a child. Break free of your self-imprisonment and find me in the open air. Fly with me. Do it now. It is a choice, just like the third steps and the seventh step. I love you.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Again, I I celebrate your um your capacity to just sort of be this uh self-aware and um and just you know open and vulnerable. I I want to say, um, you know, I I know you. Uh folks who are listening don't know you. And I am uh really moved by the stories that you're telling me today because I'll have our audience know that um, you know, while you're I've heard you uh cry a few times, uh you're speaking about God, you're speaking about prayer and meditation. And these are things that we tend to in our world uh either keep private or not talk about or not exercise. Um they're just you know, it's too feely, uh, you know, and and um and so I just I want to say that that is not my experience of you. You know, you are uh, as you mentioned, um, you know, you work in the in the courts and you are uh always well put together and you have a uh a strong woman radiance about you, and um I see you uh supporting other people all the time. And um, you know, it's just interesting because what the world might see is certainly not the stories you're telling me today. And I just kind of want to make point that out to all of us, right? Like there's there's ways that we need to care for ourselves so that we can walk boldly through the world. And um whether we share it in this way openly to an audience of God knows who, whether we use it when it's appropriate in public, whether we keep it to ourselves and we uh sort of work on our own growth and spiritual process and connecting with uh whatever that life force is in your world. Um I wish it weren't such a secret how necessary it is.

SPEAKER_05 34:08

Well, it's so interesting you bring that up because I I have a memory that comes to mind. You know, I

Advocacy At Work And The Privilege Question

SPEAKER_05 34:15

do work in the criminal defense world, um, and we have an office that is that thrives on adversity, right, and disagreement, and we're fierce advocators for our clients. And so, you know, I work with a bunch of lawyers, and you know, as my health stuff began to become more of an issue for me in terms of um, you know, sanity and and enjoyment in life, you know, how how do I wake up with migraines and you know take care of myself? And you know, I've struggled in the past with workaholism, right? You know, just feeling that I have to show up, I I have to go to work no matter what. I mean, we're talking like, you know, dislocated my shoulder in the morning and it went back into socket, and I think I'm okay to go back to work. And um, you know, big thing at the office about showing up no matter what, right? And sometimes people have compromised their health around that. And so as I continue to grow and sort of being a you know, a woman and a professional, I and also getting sick, it's very humbling and realizing that no, if I dislocate my shoulder, it's appropriate for me to stay home and take care of myself. Yeah, and so I called a meeting with management, um, and I had about four HR people there and the big boss. And I, you know, received a note from a doctor about accommodations for at that time I was having a lot of migraines and they were not under control yet. And so I was discussing this with her, sort of what that would look like. And you know, there's also legal stuff that comes into play as well, and people get touchy about that. And so at one point, I she was definitely pushing back about one of the accommodations that was recommended by my doctor, and she was getting very um agitated. And I said, Can I just have a moment? And she said, sure. And so I closed my eyes in a meeting with like four or five people and I went into the two-way prayer because I felt that I was going to be very reactive in my response to her and that it wasn't gonna be appropriate, and that it was gonna come from a place of fear and a place of hurt and a place of anger. And so I knew if I just have a moment to connect with my, you know, my God and see what comes out, that it would probably be better doing it that way than any other way. So she's like, sure, no problem. So I sit there, I close my eyes, and I'm going into this two-way prayer. And I'm sure everyone's staring at me. And you would think maybe like 10 seconds, right, Jen? Like a normal person, we're just giving her. Yeah, no, I probably was doing that for like two minutes. It was wrong that my boss said, Yeah, no, we can have another meeting and we don't have to like figure it out right now.

SPEAKER_03 36:51

Awesome.

SPEAKER_05 36:51

I said, I'm almost there. And when I closed my eyes and I went to God in that two-way prayer, God was showing me images of me with my shoulder, having migraines throwing up and mixing bowl buckets and forcing myself to go to work. And my higher power, my higher power of my God was telling me, I don't want you to do this to yourself anymore. It's okay to let go. Maybe you need to go find another job, Sheree Marie. I love you, love yourself. And I opened my eyes and I slowly turned and looked at my boss, and I said, you know what? I think that what's happening with my body and my health and the expectation at work and sort of, you know, your desires, that we may this may not be a good fit anymore. And I just took a deep breath and I said those words, not to try to manipulate or to get my way or to shut her down, just speaking the truth, right? And she looked at me and said, Oh, no, no, no, no, like let's not go there. We're gonna figure something out. It was a complete shift in her response to me advocating for myself. And so all these examples, they're cumulative now, but I think they're on point about how we can now just incorporate this. And now I just have no shame about people knowing I have a relationship with this God that protects me and serves me in every single problem that I have.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

Yeah, we don't incredible.

SPEAKER_05 38:22

Yeah, we don't we we can totally be open about it, I think. At least for incredible.

SPEAKER_00 38:28

Um, I know you have another one that you wanted to share with us, and I would love to uh do that next. I just I have to bring to the surface something that often happens for me uh when I hear these kinds of stories. Um, is you know, I think of your clients or I think of the people that I worked with. I I taught in the jails for many years, and I think about my students, and I think about um, are these tools available to them? Are they in socioeconomic situations that would allow them to say, I have to call in sick today? You know, I I mean it there's a there's a level of uh I just think how these things have to be used differently in different places, right? Um, not everybody can say this might not be a good fit to their boss because their kids will starve. You know what I mean? So it's just it's really interesting to sort of see the the power of self-advocacy while honoring uh the privilege of it. You know what I mean? Yes. Um that said, I have seen students of mine who do not have necessarily the ability to say something like that because they need whatever job they have. I have seen them practice this with their employers. I have seen uh people who you would think don't want to risk their situations that are pretty good situations in a pretty bad place. Uh, I have seen them say the things that you would think they shouldn't say. And um I remember actually asking a student once, I said, because he he told a deputy uh what he needed. And he wasn't uh confrontational, he wasn't anything. He just the deputy said one thing and he said respectfully, uh, I need this. And the deputy was like, Are you talking back to me? And he said, No, sir, I need this for myself. And I and I saw him doing it, and so I asked him the next day. I said, What were you thinking? And he said, Miss Jen, how bad, how much worse can it get? What do I have to lose? Yeah, he said, I know what I need, I'm gonna ask for it. If he says no, then I'm as miserable as I am. And he said, uh, but what happened instead was his relationship with the deputy changed, right? And and there was a different kind of uh sort of candor between them. Now I'm not suggesting that people, you know, talk back and everything will be better, right? I mean, you gotta read the room, you gotta feel it out, you gotta truly know who you are and know that this situation is not bigger than the God that you serve, right? If you do, right, the God that you serve might be just the energy of good, it might not even be something that you call God, but I'm saying like keeping it in perspective and making the right choice in the moment is critical. Um, but your story is really powerful. And um anyhow, enough out of me. Let me hear the let share with us if you would the second um experience of of this prayer that you'd like to share with us.

SPEAKER_04 41:40

Let me see.

SPEAKER_00 41:42

I'm just gonna grab one.

SPEAKER_05 41:48

Here we go. This was August 21st, uh 2024. I wrote to my uh my God, I said, What a wonderful morning. You, the moon was shining so bright in the darkness this morning. I stopped on the street in SF, closed my eyes, and took you inside of me. I didn't care what people thought of me. Thank you for yesterday with my boys. I was patient, kind, loving, and so understanding about their upcoming quiz. I remained calm and reminded them this is just a learning experience, and next time they should remember to study earlier. God, I was so loving towards them. I was in the moment with you. I hugged myself in the room when I was alone. Thank you for reminding me that I can do this when I let go. And then my higher power said to me, My God said back, Sheree, you were, quote, loving awareness that I whisper to you all the time. Good job. Now I want you to bring forth your inner child and ask her to forgive your parents. Forgive them for all the messages that you were never enough. Now forgive yourself for believing them all those long years. And so I just picked this right now as I was kind of scrolling through my book. Um, but I do want to highlight that the work we do as adults, right? And for those of us who go on to become parents or those of us who go on to mentor others, because it doesn't have to be a child, but that there are all these gifts that we can pass on to the people that we mentor in the world. And you know, I always think that the most important thing God always reminds me of is it's not how far I get up the mountain, but it is the people that I bring with me. So focus can be on, hey, this has helped me. It's been a tool, or it's been useful, or I've acquired some wisdom in an area that I must share it with others. And, you know, my we I come from all kinds of generational trauma, right? And and self defeating learned patterns and behaviors that are ancestral, rooted in my ancestors and have been taught to me. And I say that with love and understanding, right? And that as an adult today. And seeking and trying to do work to better myself, I now see this reflected in my children. That I have kids who can advocate for themselves, like we were talking about earlier, right? That, like, hey, this is a boundary, or I'm not okay with that. And here's why. Um, that these things are just so important. That of course, you know, we always make jokes that, you know, we have kids, we're gonna, you know, mess them up or, you know, make them neurotic. And at some level, that's probably gonna be true. But I'm hoping that today that neuroses is much, much, much lower volume than what many of us have experienced generationally.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

Yeah.

Inner Child Healing And Let Them

SPEAKER_00 44:42

I love that. I I love that. And um, you know, you brought something up about uh the adult child, you know, I I wouldn't mind having you back a few times because I think that just in our conversation, we've said so many things that if we were to just uh focus one show on them, I think it might be really helpful for folks just to at least be introduced to some of these things, like like the uh the inner child, which some people probably heard about. It probably sounds woo-woo to a lot of folks. And it is, you know, it is in in our society, it's something that you might call woo-woo because it has to do with emotional uh intelligence and it has to do, and that's not to say uh that there's emotional stupidity, it just means there's an awareness, a self-awareness, right? Um, and there's a lot of tools that have been therapeutically uh proven to be impactful and effective in treating trauma, in treating uh folks who grew up in dysfunctional homes, whether that was uh a parent who was incarcerated, a parent or two that had mental health issues, somebody who was an addiction, uh, people who kids who were abandoned, kids who have been uh, God forbid, molested. Like there's so many things that have come forth in terms of therapeutic modalities to help people move through those things and get to a place of uh a new kind of freedom within themselves. And if that sounds woo-woo, uh it is. You know what? Because when you're on the other side of the trauma, there's a little bit of woo, you know what I mean? I mean, it's like it sounds goofy, but it takes courage. It sounds silly, but it takes it takes uh grit. You know, you have to be really strong to do the work. Um there's a there's a book out, and and we can end with this. Um, there's a book out, um, you may have heard of it by Mel Robbins, who, you know, respectfully, I I can take or leave at different times. Um, I appreciate her, I appreciate all that she does and has done. I'm grateful that her voice is in the world. Um, but I'm not always uh in her audience, right? That said, she came out with a book called Let Them. And uh I am going through my own journey with my mother right now, who is uh ailing in health, uh has gone through lung cancer, uh chemotherapy, radiation, not just on the body, but on the brain to be preventative because lung cancer likes to jump to the brain. And um the radiation to her brain appears to have uh brought upon uh dementia, and then she had a back surgery so that she could walk. It's just there's been one thing after another, and her health is failing, and it has been an ordeal to say the least, right? And I was struggling. Um, my siblings and I, and my my stepfather, we really need to have this uh sort of united front, and um we all have our feelings and they're getting in the way. Uh, and so I uh don't do two-way prayer necessarily, uh, although I may be starting that, um, but I do have uh mindful moments or I pray and ask for sort of the wisdom to, you know, give me the give me the pause when somebody's feeling their feelings and allow me to honor it. You know, let me just respect it instead of bite back. Um, and so anyway, I came across this book and um on our website it says this is a guide on how to stop letting other people's opinions, drama, and judgment impact your life. Two simple words, let them will set you free from the exhausting cycle of trying to manage everything and everyone around you. It's time to build a life where you come first, your dreams, your goals, and your happiness. And I thought, let me just listen to it. I can always put it down if it's too woo-woo for this woo-woo, right? And I started listening to it, and there's just some moments where it's just like, you know what? If you need to say what you need to say, you need to have the nerve to say it. And if people don't like it, let them not like it. The world's not gonna blow up, you know? And there was another quote from uh Tom something, he's an actor, he's pretty well known. I should be ashamed of myself for not knowing his whole name at the top of my head, but he has a quote that says something like, If you have a problem with anything that I'm saying, please text me so we can discuss it. If you don't have my phone number, I don't care what you think.

SPEAKER_05 49:36

Isn't that great? That's awesome. And I think we need to get like t-shirts that say woo-woo on it. Like I tell you what, I'm a woo-woo bitch, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:47

I'm with you, sister. Yeah, well, watch yourself. I might put them in a store online. Listen, Cherie, I can't thank you enough for your time today and for your willingness to share um all of this with the audience. I think that a lot of us are very hungry to hear stories that we can relate to and that we can identify with. And sometimes we don't have the words, and sometimes we won't ever find the words. But to hear somebody else say them out loud can be a tremendous relief. If we can find some identification in somebody else's story, in the very least, it can help us stay out of a mindset that we're alone and that we're failing. And we can start to see that we're not alone and it's just really hard.

SPEAKER_05 50:32

Well, thank you so much for inviting me. And I also just want to remind folks that you know, if we have a flashlight that has served us in the darkness, I think it is our duty to give that flashlight to other people. Grateful to be here.

SPEAKER_00 50:46

I love it.

SPEAKER_05 50:47

Thank you so much. We'll talk soon. Okay, sounds good, my friend. Take care. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye.

Final Thanks And Where To Go Next

SPEAKER_00 50:59

If this conversation sparked something for you, or if you want to dive deeper, head over to gensblue map.com where you can join our community wakelist, enjoy our evolving space, or grab a copy of the book that started everything. Don't skip. I hope you'll pull up a chair next time and hang out with us again. We're figuring out this world and ourselves at the exact same time, growing as we listen to the stories of others. Let's keep getting to know each other. I mean, after all, we are in this together. See you next time.